Search Results: "nma"

2 March 2007

MJ Ray: Bad Tech Links for 2007-03-02

NTL blocking web sites?
Is ntl blocking access to thepiratebay or was ntl's Norwich cache broken? (Is this ntl Virgin Media now?)
BBC NEWS World Europe Gorbachev wades into piracy row
How not to make friends and influence people, the Microsoft way. With the result that:
BBC NEWS World Europe Piracy case collapses in Russia
Well, that was always going to happen!
Microsoft standards bid faces failure - Computeract!ve
and while I'm grumbling about Microsoft (which I don't do very often, but I may have a pop at Vista in a week or so), here's Open XML failing to get fast-tracked.
Denmark mandates open standards by 2008
...but they've still got friends in Denmark's standards body.
Random thought: Roomba scare
Self-improvement for Vacuum Cleaners! Now that would be bad tech.
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
I always sign up for plain text if it's available. HTML-only is a big discouragement. HTML with a useless plain text part like that is nearly always deleted unread. Protx, this means you!
VOIP IP Telephony: Skype dumps you BIOS info and sends home!
Yet another way that Skype is evil. See also:
pagetable.com Skype Reads Your BIOS and Motherboard Serial Number
Internet phones have a lot to answer for, including my imminent router upgrade:
Bagel Belly Blog: Future proof
The browser-awkwardness of the current router's web interface is another reason I'm looking at OpenWRT-like replacements.
FastMail.FM weblog: More greylisting details
Greylisting seems good, but xbl is a terrible blacklist. I don't know how it works and it has often listed new ISP mail relays (which were not open relays or exploited). Avoid xbl.
debian.org and SPAM - MadBlog
Using RBLs to trigger greylisting seems like a good idea to me.
Sue them all.
Finally, this would be funny if it wasn't so silly. Advertisers: be careful of your music placements or you might start a bomb scare. Although, musical bombs? Wouldn't that be a bit of a Hollywood film stunt?

25 February 2007

Adam Rosi-Kessel: Grimmelmann and Kozinski on Law

I recently came across two old and unrelated writings about law, both of which are worth reading, especially for people with strong opinions but no formal training. The first is this piece, entitled Seven Ways in Which Code Equals Law (And One in Which It Does Not), by recently-appointed New York Law School professor James Grimmelmann and EFF Legal Director Cindy Cohn. Several observations are particularly appropriate for the slashdot crowd (and, to a lesser extent, certain members of the Debian community and others who grew up on a diet of BASIC, Pascal, and then C and later perl). I especially like this bit about “hacking the law”:
Some people, seeing this connection, and remembering the values of good code, try to improve the legal system by treating it as a computer. People come to me with ideas for hacking the law. The government says that cryptography is a weapon, they say, but the Bill of Rights says we have the right to bear arms. So that means we have a Constitutional right to use cryptography. But the legal system isn t a computer. If you can t convince a judge that what you re proposing is consistent with the values underlying a law, your argument will go nowhere. People go to jail every year because they think they ve found a way to hack the Sixteenth Amendment. The income tax is illegal, they say, or, The income tax is voluntary, see, it says so right here, and then they get convicted of tax evasion and sent to jail. We did convince several judges about the Constitutional dimension of cryptography, but the claim started from the values of the First Amendment, not a mechanical reading of its words. It s a category mistake to treat the legal system as just another architecture with its own specialized language. Code and law are different ways of regulating; they have different textures. All of those people who are required to make the legal system work leave their mark on its outcomes: they make a certain amount of drift and discretion almost inevitable. Code doesn t have such a limit: it can make perfectly hard-nosed bright-line rules and hold everyone in the world to them. Code is capable of a kind of regulatory clarity and intensity that law can only state, never really achieve.
I don’t entirely agree with the other article, entitled What I Ate For Breakfast and Other Mysteries of Judicial Decision Making by outspoken Ninth Circuit Judge Alex Kozinski (unofficial site maintained by Aaron Swartz, wikipedia entry). For example, I think critical legal studies has resulted in some interesting insights, some of which actually have practical applciation. Still, Judge Kozinski makes an important point about the numerous factors that act as a check on discretion in judicial decisionmaking:
It is popular in some circles to suppose that judicial decision making can be explained largely by frivolous factors, perhaps for example the relationship between what judges eat and what they decide. Answering questions about such relationships is quite simple - it is like being asked to write a scholarly essay on the snakes of Ireland: There are none. But as far back as I can remember in law school, the notion was advanced with some vigor that judicial decision making is a farce. Under this theory, what judges do is glance at a case and decide who should win - and they do this on the basis of their digestion (or how they slept the night before or some other variety of personal factors). If the judge has a good breakfast and a good night’s sleep, he might feel lenient and jolly, and sympathize with the downtrodden. If he had indigestion or a bad night’s sleep, he might be a grouch and take it out on the litigants. Of course, even judges can’t make both sides lose; I know, I’ve tried. So a grouchy mood, the theory went, is likely to cause the judge to take it out on the litigant he least identifies with, usually the guy who got run over by the railroad or is being foreclosed on by the bank. This theory immodestly called itself Legal Realism. Just to prove that even the silliest idea can be pursued to its illogical conclusion, Legal Realism spawned Critical Legal Studies. As I understand this so-called theory, the notion is that because legal rules don’t mean much anyway, and judges can reach any result they wish by invoking the right incantation, they should engraft their own political philosophy onto the decision-making process and use their power to change the way our society works. So, if you accept that what a judge has for breakfast affects his decisions that day, judges should be encouraged to have a consistent diet so their decisions will consistently favor one set of litigants over the other. I am here to tell you that this is all horse manure. And, like all horse manure, it contains little seeds of truth from which tiny birds can take intellectual nourishment. The little truths are these: Under our law judges do in fact have considerable discretion in certain of their decisions: making findings of fact, interpreting language in the Constitution, statutes and regulations; determining whether officials of the executive branch have abused their discretion; and, fashioning remedies for violations of the law, including fairly sweeping powers to grant injunctive relief. The larger reality, however, is that judges exercise their powers subject to very significant constraints. They simply can’t do anything they well please.
Finally, I will link, but not embed, this video of the Anna Nicole Smith court order, for an entirely different perspective on the legal process. You almost don’t really want to have to see this stuff.

13 February 2007

Paul Wise: 13 Feb 2007

On the way home from Thailand, I saw Linux booting and X starting up on the in-seat screens on our Malaysia Airlines flight. Also got a funny cartoon for my birthday called "The adventures of debianman".

22 January 2007

Uwe Hermann: Unmaintained Free Software progress

Unmaintained Free Software new main page Yet another Unmaintained Free Software update: Thanks to Matthias (again), we now have a wonderful new main page in the wiki, which looks a lot better than the old one which I had created a long time ago... The nice icons were created by David Vignoni for the Nuvola icon theme for KDE 3.x. They're available under terms of the GNU LGPL. Many other things in the wiki are currently undergoing a long-overdue update and fixing phase. I plan to upgrade the MediaWiki installation we're using, and some new MediaWiki extensions will be added, too. Oh, and I created and installed a nice favicon for the site, based on the project logo. If you ever wondered how those things are created, here's one possibility:
  1. Create two PNG images, one 16x16, one 32x32 pixels.
  2. apt-get install icoutils
  3. icotool -c foo16x16.png foo32x32.png > favicon.ico
  4. Place the resulting favicon.ico file in your DocumentRoot. Done.
I'm sure there are other and better ways to do it, but this was the first I came up with after a quick apt-cache search favicon.

19 January 2007

Christian Perrier: Storm

Nothing really worth noticing here, the Paris area being southward enough and not hit by this major storm over northern Europe. Many people still remember Dec 26th 1999 and have been very careful, indeed. I'm just listening to the morning news and am Seeing that UK, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany, Denmark and a part of northern France have not been as lucky as us here (this doesn't seem to be finished and more Eastern parts are still to be hit). The damages seem to be pretty high and so is the number of casualties. I hope that all you people are safe and well with no damage to your lives or belongings. Happy global warming...:-(... Please spread the word around: we are all responsible for this with our daily attitude with regards to the respect of our environment. Environment respect is no more (and has never been) a joke. This is a matter of survival for us and our children. Do us a favor: break one SUV a day...:-)

18 January 2007

Gunnar Wolf: Then fix the software, not the format!

Erich: Of course that I know XML's obstination on manually matched closing tags is intentional - That and several other points simplifying SGML were what in the end allowed SGML to succeed (and wildly). However, I still not agree. If you have a tool that generates broken files (which are expected to be read, no less, by any other arbitrary tool which does not require to be very bright), whose fault is it? The file format? No - The generator's. Besides, if you have a configuration format that's expected to be used by al kinds of tools, and sent over every conceivable type of configuration channel (including slow and expensive ones, such as mobile phones), or that can contain arbitrarily deeply nested structures and become just huge, shouldn't your priority be to make the protocol less repetitive instead of more? If you want a format to be robust, yes, you should insist on well-balancedness (what's the last time you were able to compile C code with unmatched braces?), and reject unbalanced documents (possibly even, yes, pointing out where the match was probably broken - Yes, this last point favors XML over simple braces, but still, a compiler often makes a decent job at finding where a nesting problem lies)... Yes, I don't have the authority to question what has become a world standard - But I still have to be persuaded XML is the way to go for many (no, of course, not all) of its uses.
No, I'm not pushing YAML too hard - I just happened to like it for several uses, but I'm far from an informed fan. I'm just bashing XML, which is fun enough for me ;-)
Oh, and about your blog: Right, it seems the culprit is Google Reader. Planet links just fine, and using RSS 1.0, the only link I get is the right one. Planet's RSS 2.0 generator should be to blame then.

16 January 2007

Benjamin Mako Hill: Geography Lesson

I gave a talk at a the Boston Ruby group last Wednesday. The meeting was generously hosted by the Boston start-up Back Channel Media. On the way out, BCM offered attendees schwag in the form of branded inflatable globes and Slinkies. On Thursday, I suggested to SJ Klein and Seth Schoen that we might be able to use the globe as a research aid during the MIT Mystery Hunt. That seemed like a good idea until they pointed out that there were a few inaccuracies on the map. Sure enough, a quick glance revealed that:
  • Burkino Faso is marked as Upper Volta (it's only been 22 years) with a capital as Duagadougou.
  • Rwanda seems to be a small horizontal bar across a country marked both as Ucanda and Buhuno.
  • Zimbabn is labeled clearly while Morocco, clearly divided into two countries, is not marked in either of the resulting (and differently colored) states.
  • A missing border and a color identical to the ocean (!) renders Egypt completely underwater. Yemen, Iraq, Thailand, Romania, Austria, Croatia, Finland, (whose name is missing), and the eastern quarter of India are better off in that they blend into the ocean but have river colored borders demarcating them from the rest of the sea.
  • The Arabian peninsula is host to Qatah, the United Arab Emiraies, and the Saudi capital of Rivaiih.
  • A bit to the north, Jurdan borders Irae and Lebanaw.
  • The countries Czek and Slovak seem to be located just above Czechoslovakia which, in turn, is just above Huudatn.
  • A similar situation happens in Yugoslavia which seems to be next to Monienegro and other more familiar Slavic states.
  • Amstercam is right next to the the German city of Roro.
  • Swirzerlano sits in the middle of Europe.
  • England's Lworpool and Rirmingham are clearly, and clearly incorrectly, marked.
  • Both Russia and the Commonwealth of Independent States are clearly marked while China, despite having dozens of its cities labeled, is not.
  • St. Petersburg seems a full 1000+ kilometers from any body of water and closer to Bellarussian than to a port.
  • Lapan shows many cities including Tokya, Kyole, and others -- while most seem to be located somewhere off the coast of Lapan in the Pacific ocean.
  • The Korean peninsula contains N. Korea and S. Aurla.
  • Myanmar is marked as Burma (although I might forgive that one if I had reason to believe it was intentional).
  • Malaysia is labeled Malaskia.
  • The continent at the South Pole is proudly marked Tarctica.
Of course, this list is extremely incomplete. I've barely looked at cities, rivers, and even some country names and I've barely looked at the degree to which the cities and labels are correct but incorrectly placed. The full list of errata would, in a manner reminscent of English As She Is Spoke, be very, very, long. While the globe does not bear any markings of a producer (I wouldn't want to take credit for it either), a group of us suspected that we might be able to find the country of origin by locating the one country that was represented completely accurately. We couldn't find a single one.

12 January 2007

Uwe Hermann: New Unmaintained Free Software logo

New Unmaintained Free Software logo Thanks to the great work of Matthias we now have a great new logo for the Unmaintained Free Software wiki. Thats' all.

10 January 2007

Erich Schubert: Linux distributions to be illegal in Germany?

The biggest party in Bavaria and part of the current german government, CSU, has announced that they want to make the "production and distribution of killer-games" illegal in germany. They claim it's because of a recent highschool shooting (no fatalities except the shooter; there was one other highschool shooting in germany a few years ago with 16 fatalities. Yes, that is 17 fatalities in over 40 years, the 42 years old amok runner back then didn't play killer games, I guess, although he used a flame thrower...). This would make the production and distribution in Germany unlawful, since we include games such as overkill, tremulous and openarena. Other distributions such as SuSE probably include some games that classify as "killer games" as well. Also note that "distribution" is a rather wide term. Does it apply to web sites? ISPs? If there is an online killer game, is the ISP "distributing" it? Polticians (especially those from CSU/CDU/SPD) are such a bunch of idiots. Please do NOT ever again vote for CSU. Software patents, killer games, "Problemfrauen & Schadbären", surveillance cameras and other surveillance, military inside germany (note that in desaster cases such as the flooding some years ago we could already deploy soldats without extra laws), shooting down of civilian airplanes, transrapid, reducing math and natural sciences in highschools, "google earth threatens worldcup security", police installing trojans on home PCs (because criminals don't install virus scanners?), kicking "irritating" students out of school, study fees, ... Often they make George W. Bush look like a genius, don't they? They don't do any important stuff, but just say whatever a majority people might want to hear. They waste our money (Transrapid). They destroy our biggest resource (changes in school system and university system, which will reduce average knowledge in germany a lot). They do lots of stupid things, which heavily invade privacy or public safety (military, surveillance) with no benefits in safety and many of which even where only stopped because they violated our constitution. Do not vote for them! [Updates: Daniel, sorry for posting a non-english post to planet. I again put it into the wrong category; I intended to do a longer post (this one) in english later on. For clarification: CSU is the sister party of CDU, these parties have an arrangement not to compete by region and are closely affiliated. On the nation-wide level they have a joint list, which often is called CDUCSU. So they're not just an "affiliate", but a strong part of the ruling party. Holger Levsen pointed out we are likely going to violate some laws much earlier by distributing ("hacker-") tools such as nmap, ettercap or whireshark.]

Holger Levsen: killergames and hackertools

Erich, it's not only killergames which threatens the legal distribution of linux in germany, but also hackertools like ping, ethereal or nmap. Check out this article (german only), which explains the new law which will come into effect in germany on the 15th of march this year.

Obviously you need hackertools, to be able to check if you're system is secure or vulnerable, but unfortunatly common sense is a lost art nowadays.

More maybe later, I'm in a hurry, but I at least wanted to make this remark. More discussion and evaluation of this is definitly needed!

9 January 2007

Erich Schubert: SVN $Date$ to ISO 8601 in XSLT

I'm keeping my homepage in a SVN repository; I'm using the $Date$ variable to automatically track the last modification date (though it will also change on minor modifications). For the HTML "Date" meta tag, the W3C recommends using ISO8601 date format. This is the (non-XSLT-2, so no regexp) hack I use for conversion:
<xsl:value-of select="concat(substring($string,8,4),'-',substring($string,13,2),'-',substring($string,16,2),'T',substring($string,19,8),substring($string,28,5))" />
Did I mention I hate XSLT? It's lacking so many standard functions, like date-time processing, regular expressions, exceptions, ... - granted, a lot of stuff was added for XSLT2, but it still sucks badly. Especially the syntax. Here's how to format the date according to RFC 2616, as used in the last-modified meta tag and HTTP/NNTP/SMTP headers:
<xsl:variable name="day" select="concat(substring($string,8,4),'-',substring($string,13,2),'-',substring($string,16,2))" />
<xsl:variable name="time" select="substring($string,19,8)" />
<xsl:variable name="timezone" select="substring($string,28,5)" />
<xsl:value-of select="date:day-abbreviation($day)" />
<xsl:text>, </xsl:text>
<xsl:value-of select="date:day-in-month($day)" />
<xsl:text> </xsl:text>
<xsl:value-of select="date:month-abbreviation($day)" />
<xsl:text> </xsl:text>
<xsl:value-of select="date:year($day)" />
<xsl:text> </xsl:text>
<xsl:value-of select="date:time($time)" />
<xsl:text> </xsl:text>
<xsl:value-of select="$timezone" />
Note that this does not include any error handling and is not very robust. You also need an XSLT processor with some of the ">">">http://exslt.org/dates-and-times extensions such as xsltproc. (Which unfortunately doesn't do XSLT2 yet and doesn't have a regexp extension). [Update: Joel Wreed pointed me to his libxslt plugins, a regexp and a exsl.org/dates-and-times plugin. These would help a lot, though IIRC the date-parse exsl.org spec doesn't support the date format I'd need. (So I can't just say date-format(date-parse(...),...)). Also he said that they basically are unmaintained right now. It would be nice if they could be merged into libxslt, though...]

5 January 2007

Antti-Juhani Kaijanaho: .

You scored as Neither. You think neither like a man nor like a woman. What you are you may decide for yourself. Most people will consider you strange, alien, weird or funny. You are probably quite interesting.
Neither
75%
Male
43%
Female
43%
Either
36%
Should you be MALE or FEMALE?*
created with QuizFarm.com

11 December 2006

David Moreno Garza: Augusto Pinochet dies

(Translated from my same post in Spanish) A few days ago, McDonald published a cartoon on the end of the dictator Pinochet.
FINOCHET (fin meaning “end”). Damn heart, it had to be on the left.
Yesterday, fascist dictator Augusto Pinochet died in the Military Hospital in Santiago, after heart and lung diseases, being 91 years old. Now, current president Michelle Bachelet, a moderate socialist, in case Pinochet is given State memorials, could be attending the ceremony (in a predominantly conservative country as Chile), even after she was tortured and persecuted under the dictatorship and his father was murdered under the regimen, after serving Salvador Allende‘ government. Shitty life, huh? Viva Chile!, just as the ironman stated.

16 November 2006

David Moreno Garza: On Jordi s arrival to DebConf7

I simply loved this; on the ways of arriving and reaching Edinburgh, to get to DebConf7 :D
Swimming
Jordi, please tell us when you’ll arrive at Leith, and we can arrange for someone to come and pick you up with a towel and some whisky.
Heh, that’s our ironman. ;-)


Jordi working out to get to DebConf7.

Jeff Licquia: What Do We Want From Microsoft?

Jason Matusow of Microsoft wants to know:
That said, the real voice of the community is…well…from those of you I don’t know. I have to tell you that the issues with getting this covenant right are incredibly complex and there are real concerns on all sides. Our design goal is to get language in place that allows individual developers to keep developing.
(This is in response to the recent patent deal between Microsoft and Novell, and the poor reception it’s getting from the free software community.) Unfortunately, he got GrokLaw-ed, and his comment system isn’t taking the heat well. So, here’s my feedback; hopefully, he’s paying attention to views outside his comments. The big problem, if you ask me, is the distinction between “commercial” and “non-commercial” that Matusow (and everyone else I hear from Microsoft) is making. In our world, that distinction is a lot less important than the distinction between “proprietary” and “open”. For us, “commercial” is just another way software can be used, and restrictions on commercial use are like restrictions on use by women, or by people in Illinois, or by people who have ever picked their nose in public. Why are businessmen any less deserving of our software as a class than housewives, or Haitians, or other free software developers? Matusow claims not to be interested in any of this:
We are not interested in providing carte blanche clearance on patents to any commercial activity - that is a separate discussion to be had on a per-instance basis. As you comment, please keep in mind that we are talking about individuals, not .orgs, not .com, not non-profits, not…well, not anyone other than individual non-commercial coders.
Dialogue often means meeting the other person where they’re at, not where you want them to be. They would, presumably, not take us seriously if we insisted on a blanket patent license as a condition for any kind of conversation. Fair enough; but then why should we taken them seriously when they insist on us turning our backs on one of our bedrock principles? But does the conversation have to be either-or? I’m betting that Matusow’s blog post is evidence that it doesn’t. People at his level are not the types to waste time on wild goose chases. And is it all that strange to think there might be value in the conversation? There’s a mighty thin line between “proprietary” and “commercial”, so thin even we get them confused sometimes. Does Microsoft really care all that much about for-profit use and improvement of free and open tech? If so, they’re prominent members of a small and shrinking club. If not, then it seems to me that we have a lot of common ground for discussion.

8 November 2006

Erinn Clark: cd /mnt/view

The week before last, I packed up my car and drove across the country and am now in California. All I have to say about that is: WESSSIIIDE! I also have a few pictures.
This cow mooed at me until I went away. I love New Mexico.
Obligatory tourist shot at the Grand Canyon. As an aside, on my way there I got stuck on a highway overnight because of a police/gunman standoff.
Some pretty blown glass flowers inside the Bellagio in Las Vegas, NV.
The meteor crater, which I wish to pave and turn into a skatepark.

20 October 2006

Ross Burton: Devil's Pie "Simmer To A Sizzle Like The Days Of Old" 0.18

Devil's Pie (someones favourite window manipulation tool) 0.18 is out. Features galore in this release! Downloads are in the usual place.

Ross Burton: Devil's Pie "Simmer To A Sizzle Like The Days Of Old" 0.18

Devil's Pie (someones favourite window manipulation tool) 0.18 is out. Features galore in this release! Downloads are in the usual place.

8 October 2006

Uwe Hermann: Unmaintained GNU packages need new maintainer: a2ps, fontutils, thales

I stumbled over this page on gnu.org yesterday, which says that the a2ps, fontutils, and thales packages are in need of new maintainers. Especially a2ps has often been very useful to me, so I instantly added it to the Unmaintained Free Software wiki (the other two will follow soon). It would be nice if someone could take over these packages, fix some bugs, and generally keep them in shape. I don't like seeing such useful programs die.

29 September 2006

Edd Dumbill: Locking down portmap on Debian

Most sensible people are very wary of NFS and its potential for security holes. If you can at all help it, it's a good idea not to run NFS and portmap on a network interface with direct internet connectivity. However, this isn't always convenient. As I needed to have NFS sharing on a host exposed to the internet, I set about finding the various places I needed to firewall. The tools I typically use to verify I've done the right things are netstat -nap on the machine concerned, to check for listening processes, and nmap from remote hosts to sniff for open ports. Portmap and its associated programs mostly use 'tcpwrappers' for controlling access. The first step you ought to take in securing portmap is to ensure that your hosts.allow and hosts.deny files are set up to control access properly. In /etc/hosts.deny, deny access to allcomers:
mountd: ALL
statd: ALL
portmap: ALL
rquotad: ALL
Then in /etc/hosts.allow, let the good guys through (adjust for your network):
mountd: 192.168.0.
statd: 192.168.0.
portmap: 192.168.0.
rquotad: 192.168.0.
On top of this, however, you should firewall off the ports that these programs use. As I found out, this is not as easy as it sounds. Portmap assigns random ports for some of the services it starts. You can run rpcinfo -p to see the ports in use. An example run on one of my machines looks like this:
program vers proto   port
 100000    2   tcp    111  portmapper
 100000    2   udp    111  portmapper
 100003    2   udp   2049  nfs
 100003    3   udp   2049  nfs
 100003    4   udp   2049  nfs
 100003    2   tcp   2049  nfs
 100003    3   tcp   2049  nfs
 100003    4   tcp   2049  nfs
 100021    1   udp  32770  nlockmgr
 100021    3   udp  32770  nlockmgr
 100021    4   udp  32770  nlockmgr
 100021    1   tcp  32788  nlockmgr
 100021    3   tcp  32788  nlockmgr
 100021    4   tcp  32788  nlockmgr
 100005    1   udp   1005  mountd
 100005    1   tcp   1008  mountd
 100005    2   udp   1005  mountd
 100005    2   tcp   1008  mountd
 100005    3   udp   1005  mountd
 100005    3   tcp   1008  mountd
 100024    1   udp    863  status
 100024    1   tcp    866  status
Of these, nfs and portmapper always use the same ports, 2049 and 111, so ensure you block off these. What about the rest? Happily, there's a way to configure them to use constant ports so we can reliably firewall them. Life would be too easy if all this configuration was in the one place, so here's how to find the different places you need to change. Finally, if you're running quotas, be sure to do something similar with RPCRQUOTADOPTS in /etc/default/quota. See also: Finally, I ought to note that I've written this up in case it helps anybody else. As with everything I write here, I make no warranty about its accuracy. Security is hard and obscure (but that's no reason not make our best efforts!)

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