Search Results: "gfa"

6 January 2008

Christoph Berg: mutt-patched

There have been several long-term wishlist bugs on Mutt to include the (in?)famous "sidebar" patch. It adds a panel on the left side of the screen to list mailboxes with message counts. We do ship several patches with Debian's Mutt package that are not considered for inclusion by the upstream authors, but this one is different. It touches the core of the UI renderer and adds extensive counting of messages. There's been quite a hype about the patch, it was even included in the (now discontinued [1]) mutt-ng fork. Unfortunately, the patch was technically questionable, it was written for the Mutt tarballs and didn't easily apply to CVS, and most versions floating around contained lots of cruft like backup files and temporary editor files. Furthermore, it is far from bug-free and even segfaults occasionally. Some months ago we decided we would build a second binary package to put the patch in so we don't destabilize the standard package. Thanks Dann Frazier, we got a clean patch, Adeodato had the right idea on how to build two binaries from the same, differently-patched source (make install would run havoc, the trick was to build the patched version before the regular one), and I resolved some more involved conflicts with the maildir-mtime patch. So, finally, there it is: mutt-patched. Disclaimer: As said, there are bugs. YMMV. On related news, there's now also a -dbg package now for the victims of the IMAP and header cache segfaults that we still see sometimes. Update: The sidebar patch was not the reason for the creation of mutt-ng, but many mutt-ng users were using it because of this patch. Update 2008-01-08: [1] mutt-ng used to be a Mutt fork. It is now maintained as a patch collection for Mutt.

4 January 2008

Erich Schubert: Safari on Linux

If you are doing websites, you might want to test them with Safari as well.Sure, konqueror and midori (which uses GTK webkit) already provide a pretty good approximation on Safari rendering, but there might still be differences.Here's how to run Safari on Linux: The biggest 'trick' for me was to install the Microsoft fonts. Without them, Safari would segfault when rendering the URL bar the first time.Step 2 assumes you have the Microsoft fonts already installed on your system in the place typical for Debian and Ubuntu users. If you don't find out how to get the required ttf files yourself. You maybe also can just symlink them.Wine can indeed run most Windows applications by now...P.S. ies4linux claims to have a way of installing and running MS IE 7 on Linux. I didn't test this. But that would give you the full array of major browsers on Linux: IE6, IE7, Safari, Iceweasel (Firefox), Opera. And tons of more usable and better integrated browsers such as Epiphany. :-)

30 December 2007

Steve Kemp: I just don't understand

Whilst I'm very pleased with my new segmented network setup, and the new machine, I'm extremely annoyed that I cannot get a couple of (graphical) Xen guest desktop guests up and running. The initial idea was that I would setup a 64-bit installation of Etch and then communicate with it via VNC - xen-tools will do the necessary magic if you create your guest with "--role=gdm". Unfortunately it doesn't work. When vncserver attempts to start upon an AMD64 host it dies with a segfault - meaning that I cannot create a scratch desktop environment to play with. All of this works perfectly with a 32-bit guest, and that actually is pretty neat. It lets me create a fully virtualised, restorable, environment for working with flash/java/etc. The bug was filed over three years ago as #276948, but there doesn't appear to be a solution. Also, only on the amd64 guest, I'm seeing errors when I try to start X which mention things like "no such file or directory /dev/tty0". I've no idea whats going on there - though it could be a vt (virtual terminal) thing?. The upshot of all this is that I currenly have fewer guests than I was expecting:
skx@gold:~/blog/data$ xm list
Name                                      ID Mem(MiB) VCPUs State   Time(s)
Domain-0                                   0     3114     2 r-----   1180.6
cfmaster.services.xen                      1      256     1 -b----      1.0
etch32.desktop.xen                         2      256     1 -b----      1.4
etch32.security-build.xen                  3      128     1 -b----      1.4
etch64.security-build.xen                  4      128     1 -b----      1.4
sarge32.security-build.xen                 5      128     1 -b----      1.0

26 December 2007

MJ Ray: Cyclocross: Hofstade

Hope you had a good Christmas Day if you celebrate it. The cycling starts again already: RAI Sport Sat (free-to-air 13e) have highlights of today’s seventh Cyclocross World Cup event from Hofstade Belgium at 22:30 CET today (Wednesday). No idea whether it will be repeated… my recent predictions seem to have been a bit wrong. Hofstade is the sixth elite men’s event to actually happen, after the cancellation of their race at the Milan round. Sven Nys of Belgium leads the elite men’s rankings by almost 500 points from compatriots Bart Wellens and Klaas Vantornout. Daphny van den Brand of the Netherlands leads the elite women by 340 points from USA’s Katherine Compton. 300 points for a win, then 260, 220, 190, 170, and so on. The contests aren’t over yet. Update: It’s on again 22:30 CET today (Thursday) and repeated at 11:10 tomorrow (Friday) according to teletext.

24 December 2007

MJ Ray: Year of Cycling

RAI Sport Sat (free-to-air 13e) have a show called “Year of Cycling” at 17:15 CET today (Monday 24th). I’d expect it to be repeated later in the week, maybe tomorrow.

17 December 2007

Jose Luis Rivas Contreras: libtorrent/rtorrent 0.11.9/0.7.9 ready!

Like 7 hours ago I finished the new upstream releases of libtorrent/rtorrent 0.11.9/0.7.9, there're amd64 binaries availables here for libtorrent 0.11.9-1 and here for rtorrent 0.7.9-1, this release fixes some segfaults issues because of GCC-4.2.X and fixes some PEX issues. Right now waiting for libtorrent to be uploaded and then consequently rtorrent.

4 December 2007

Ondřej Čertík: M rida - wrap up

From November 28 till December 2, 2007, I attended a Debian QA and release teams work session in Extremadura, which is an autonomous community of western Spain, that managed to install Debian on 90000 computers in every school (technically a Debian based distribution called gnuLinEx) and Junta de Extremadura also sponsored this meeting.

I took photos of all participants, see my first, second and third posts. When I arrived at the Madrid airport where we first met, I set myself a goal to remember all names and faces, so I used my blog to help me and I think I succeeded in the end. :)

See also our wiki page that we used prior and during the meeting.

So what did we do besides throwing candies?


Lucas Nussbaum will send a summary email soon about the meeting, so I'll just speak for myself:


I worked with Gon ri on svnbuildstat, that is a service for building packages and show statistics about lintian/linda/piuparts checks. It for example contains all packages of the Debian Python Modules Team (that I am a member of) and many others. We discussed and started to work on how to create robust buildbots, that can be installed as a regular Debian package with zero (if possible) configuration, so that many people can just install them without pain, thus providing a huge scalability to the project.

We wrote a preliminary patch to pbuilder for killing the build if it exceeds given memory/disk usage. I had to learn the internals of pbuilder and I lost quite some time squashing some stupid bug I caused while writing the patch.

I spent most of my time with svnbuildstat, mostly learning and discussing things. This will be important for the future, but to also have some real results, I also fixed some packages I comaintain:

Together with Kumar Appaiah we fixed the python-numpy package and I had it uploaded, then I learned how to work with quilt instead of dpatch to handle patches in Debian packages, thanks to Holger's webpage, that contains a nice tutorial. Then I switched from dpatch to quilt in python-scipy and backported a patch from upstream svn to fix a segfault bug and had the package uploaded.

Then I finished the Cython package and had it uploaded. Cython is a marvelous package to speed up Python programs and interface C/C++ programs. I greatly recommend to try. If you don't like it, you can try some of at least 10 other ways to wrap C code in Python. I also used quilt in there to backport a patch from the upstream Mercurial repository to implement parsing @classmethods. Quilt is really a pleasure to work with.

Impressions from the meeting

I've been using Debian since 2001 as my only operating system on all of my computers, so I am not a complete beginner. But it never occured to me I could get involved in Debian more than a user and an occasional bug reporter. What a mistake.

I started packaging new things and fixing packages that I need for my work and that didn't work. This got me involved quite a bit in Debian. But in M rida it was the first time I could dring a beer (well, especially wine) with Debian Developers and I found out they are really cool people. They are all very skilled. Also something, that I love about Debian, is that the people involved in it share two common features, that are very important for them - respect to democracy and personal freedom. When I think about it, those are probably the first two items on my presonal list of values.

Of course, everytime there is a group of 1000+ people, there are good and bad people, more and less skilled, but important is the overall atmosphere - and that is as I described. I think Debian is truly unique. There is Gentoo, that has maybe 40 (?) active developers. There is Ubuntu, that has maybe 100 (?) developers, but it's basically a comercial distribution and there is not so many interesting work for non employees of Canonical. There is opensuse and fedora, where I am not sure about the numbers. The atmosphere in Debian can change in the future, one never knows, but as of the end of 2007, I think it's very cool to get involved.

Maybe it's not for everyone, but it's the right place for me.

13 November 2007

MJ Ray: Cyclocross: Pijnacker

After the comments on a recent post, at least one reader should be happy that RAI Sport Sat (free-to-air 13e) have a quarter-hour show of last weekend’s third cyclocross World Cup event at Pijnacker from 18:40-18:55 CET today (Tuesday).

10 November 2007

MJ Ray: RAAM 2007 and 4 Days of Milan

SLO2 (FTA 13e) is advertising a sports documentary called RAAM 2007 today (Saturday 10 November) at 1630 CET - that might be the Race Across AMerica and there’s no telling what language it will be in! RAI Sport Sat (FTA 13e)
has coverage of the 4 Days of Milan stage from Montichiari to Castellana on Sunday 11 November at 1700 CET. I can’t find this race on the UCI calendar - does anyone know it?

27 October 2007

MJ Ray: Firenza-Pistoia

The ProTour may be over, but there’s coverage of the category 1.1 race from Firenza-Pistoia on RAI Tre from 16:55-17:25 CET (free-to-air 13e), repeated
RAI Sport Sat (free-to-air 13e) from 21:15-21:45 CET today.

MJ Ray: Cyclocross: Tabor

RAI Sport Sat (free-to-air 13e) have highlights of the second cyclocross World Cup event in Tabor, Czech Republic at 23:00 CET today. More introduction to cycling’s winter cousin on cyclingfans.com.

22 October 2007

Thijs Kinkhorst: eduota segfaults on etch

I spent some time today trying to find out why in a simple quota configuration on Debian etch, edquota keeps failing:
# edquota thijs
Segmentation fault
I haven't pinpointed the exact cause, upgrading the kernel didn't help, but what did help is taking the quota package from unstable and recompiling it for etch. I'm posting it here so it might help someone else with the same problem; I may create a backport for etch of quota when I get home later.

21 October 2007

MJ Ray: Cyclocross: Kalthout

Damiano Cunego won yesterday’s Tour of Lombardy but it doesn’t affect the overall: Cadel Evans still tops the 2007 ProTour. RAI Sport Sat (free-to-air 13e) have coverage of the first cyclocross World Cup event of the season from 14:55-16:00 CET today. More introduction to cycling’s winter cousin on cyclingfans.com.

20 October 2007

MJ Ray: Giro di Lombardia

Coverage of the last ProTour cycle race of the year is live on Eurosport (free-to-air on 19e) 15.15-17.00 CET and on RaiTre (13e) 15:50-17.00 CET. Strangely, I can’t find a French station for this one. There’s also an introduction to digital satellite TV and digital TV in general at the start of BBC’s current Click show: show times on BBC World and on BBC News24 or the video is available in some formats online. Do you have questions about free-to-air digital satellite TV? Leave me a comment - I’ll have plenty of time to reply now the ProTour season is finished.

14 October 2007

Martin F. Krafft: Converting a package to Git

Previously, I demonstrated a Debian packaging workflow using Git and I mentioned the possibility of a follow-up post; well, here it is: you want to use my workflow (or one that's related) for a package that is currently maintained with Subversion on svn.debian.org and you'd like to keep the history during the conversion. Make sure to read the previous post before this one. I am again using the example of mdadm since its Git packaging repository is in a state of shambles and I want to restart to get it right and import the history from the previous Subversion repository. What better way than to write a blog post as I do so? Well, plenty actually. This kind of post isn't really made for a blog, and I have started work on setting up ikiwiki on madduck.net, but it's not yet ready, so I'll stick with the blog for now. I will make sure that links don't break as I move content over, so feel free to bookmark this
Importing the package into Git Thanks to git-svn, the initial step of getting your package imported into Git is a breeze:
$ git-svn clone --stdlayout --no-metadata \
    svn+ssh://svn.debian.org/svn/pkg-mdadm/mdadm mdadm
Sit back and enjoy. If that command exits prematurely with an error such as the following:
Malformed network data: Malformed network data at /usr/local/bin/git-svn line 1029
then you should upgrade to a newer Git version, or have a look here. If your Git does not know --stdlayout then upgrade as well (or use -T trunk -t tags -b branches instead). Sam Vilain notes that it is important to "get the attribution right with the final SVN import - getting the authors map right. I didn't do that. If you look at the repository resulting from the above command, you'll notice strange commit authors, such as madduck@some-unique-uuid-from-svn . git-svn allows you to map these to real names with real email addresses, which ensures that the attributions are good for the whole world to see. When done, switch to the repository and run git-branch -r. As you'll see, git-svn imported all SVN branches and tags as remote branches. You need those if you want to bidirectionally track the Subversion repository, but we are converting, as you may have guessed by the --no-metadata switch above. Therefore, we resort to the Dinosaur method of converting branches to tags, which I'll simplify for mdadm. We also just delete all remote branches after tagging, since mdadm never used branches in the SVN repository. Your mileage may vary.
git branch -r   sed -rne 's, *tags/([^@]+)$,\1,p'   while read tag; do
  echo "git tag debian/$tag tags/$ tag ^; git branch -r -d tags/$tag"
done
git branch -r   while read tag; do
  echo "git branch -r -d $tag"
done
If that seems to work alright, then you can execute the commands. Sam Vilain (again) hints me at git-pack-refs and then to edit .git/packed-refs with an editor. This certainly leaves more room for errors but might be significantly faster.
Cleaning up the SVN references Even though we passed --no-metadata to git-svn, it did leave some traces in .git/, which we can now safely remove:
$ git config --remove-section svn-remote.svn
$ rm -r .git/svn
Setting things straight You can skip this section unless you want to know a bit about how to fix up stuff with Git. There was actually some nasty tagging errors leading up to the 2.5.6-9 release for etch and I could never be bothered to fix those in SVN, but now I can (I love Git!):
$ git tag -d debian/2.5.6-10            # never existed
$ git tag -f debian/2.5.6-8 2.5.6-8~2   # mistagged
$ git checkout -b maint/etch 2.5.6-8    # this is when we diverged
$ git apply < /tmp/mdadm-2.5.6-8..2.5.6-9.diff
$ git add debian/po/gl.po debian/po/pt.po debian/changelog
$ git commit -s
$ git tag debian/2.5.6-9
Now that that's fixed, there is one other thing to worry about, namely the very last commit to SVN, which obsoletes the repository and points to the Git repository. But that's not all of it. I was also silly enough to include a fix in the same commit. Let's see what Git can do. Since the process of obsoletion involves all but adding a file, we can simply --amend the last commit and provide a new log message:
$ git checkout master
$ git rm OBSOLETE debian/OBSOLETE
$ git commit --amend
Now the repository is in an acceptable state.
Making ends meet The pkg-mdadm effort on svn.debian.org only maintained the ./debian/ directory, separate from the upstream code, and boy was that a bad idea. Just to give one example: think about what's involved in preparing a Debian-specific patch against the upstream code this has to end, and we can make it end right here; let's import upstream's code (again not using his ADSL line, but the upstream branch of the pkg-mdadm Git repository; see the previous post for details):
$ git remote add upstream-repo git://git.debian.org/git/pkg-mdadm/mdadm
$ git config remote.upstream-repo.fetch \
    +refs/heads/upstream:refs/remotes/upstream-repo/upstream
$ git fetch upstream-repo
$ git checkout -b upstream upstream-repo/master
Now we have two unconnected ancestries in our repository, and it's time to join them together. The most logical way seems to be to use the last upstream tag for which we have a Debian tag: 2.6.2. For this, we branch off the corresponding Debian tag (2.6.2-1) and merge upstream's 2.6.2 tag into the new branch. This will be a temporary branch Then, we rebase (remember, nothing has been published yet) the master branch on top of this temporary branch, before we end that branch's short life. The Debian tag stays where it is since it describes the state of the repository at time of the release of 2.6.2-1.
$ git checkout -b tmp/join debian/2.6.2-1
$ git merge mdadm-2.6.2
$ git rebase tmp/join master
$ git branch -d tmp/join
It just so happens that the head of the SVN repository, which is identical to the tip of our master branch, corresponds to Debian release 2.6.2-2, so we tag it:
$ git tag debian/2.6.2-2
We are now also "born" in the sense that maintenance in Git has started. Let's mark that point in history. There is no real reason I can foresee for this yet, but nonetheless:
$ git tag -s git-birth
Turning dpatch files into feature branches We want to turn dpatch files into feature branches and we somehow make it "proper". We could branch, apply the patch, delete the patch file, checkout master and delete the patch file there as well, but that appears "improper" to me at least; so instead, we'll cherry-pick:
$ git checkout -b deb/conffile-location
$ debian/patches/01-mdadm.conf-location.dpatch -apply
$ git rm debian/patches/01-mdadm.conf-location.dpatch
$ git commit -s
$ git commit -s $(git ls-files --others --modified)
I should quickly intervene to make sure you are following. I am making use of Git's index here. Applying the patch makes the changes in the working tree, but we did not tell Git that we want those to be part of the commit just yet. Instead, we delete the dpatch with git-rm, which automatically registers the deletion with the index. Thus, the first git-commit creates a commit which deletes the dpatch, while the second git-commit creates a commit with all the changes from the dpatch, using git-ls-files to identify new and modified files. But for now, let's move on. We have two commits in the deb/conffile-location branch, and one of those is relevant to the master branch, we cherry-pick it:
$ git cherry-pick deb/conffile-location^
If you're confused, let me explain: our goal is to have a number of feature branches, of which master is the one in which most of ./debian/ is maintained. All the branches later come together in the long-living build branch, so deb/conffile-location will never be merged back into master. However, once we applied the dpatch to the feature branch, we can delete it from there and the master branch. By cherry-picking, we "import" the deletion to the master branch. I repeat the same procedure for deb/docs, merging all the documentation-related dpatches, but I'll spare you the details.
and then Git let me down In the next step, I found I had misunderstood Git merging: I thought Git was smart, but Linus had his reasons for calling Git the "stupid content tracker" (more on that later). Read on as I am obsoleting dpatch files that upstream had merged: 99-*-FIX.dpatch. For consistency, I wanted to cherry-pick each of the appropriate upstream commits into the master branch along with deleting the corresponding dpatch file. Here is one example: 99-monitor-6+10-FIX.dpatch was obsoleted by upstream's commit 66f8bbb; the -x records the original commit ID in the log:
$ git cherry-pick -x 66f8bbb
$ git rm debian/patches/99-monitor-6+10-FIX.dpatch
$ git commit -s -m"remove dpatch obsoleted by $(git rev-parse --short HEAD)"
I repeated the procedure for the other dpatch files, removed the dpatch infrastructure, and then went on to merge it all into build to build the package. The build branch is a long-living branch off upstream, but which upstream? I'll fast-forward you past a segfault problem with mdadm, which upstream (thought to have) resolved with commit 23dc1ae after 2.6.3, but he had not yet released 2.6.4. Looking at the commits between 23dc1ae and upstream's HEAD at the time, I decided to include them all and snapshot 4450e59:
$ git fetch upstream-repo
$ git checkout upstream
$ git merge upstream-repo
$ git tag mdadm-2.6.3+200709292116+4450e59 4450e59
$ git checkout master
$ git merge --no-commit mdadm-2.6.3+200709292116+4450e59
$ dch -v mdadm-2.6.3+200709292116+4450e59-1
$ git add debian/changelog
$ git commit -s
And then I called poor-mans-gitbuild, which merges master and then deb/* into build. Here is when stuff blew up. I'll make a long story short (read my description of the problem and Linus' answer if you want to know more): I thought Git was smart to identify merges common to both branches and do the right thing, but it turn out that Git does not care at all about commits, it only worries about content and the end result. In our case, unfortunately (or fortunately), the outcome meant a conflict because the upstream branch introduced a simple change (last hunk) in the lines surrounding the patch we cherry-picked, and Git can't handle it. The solution is not to cherry-pick, to cherry-pick all commits touching the context of the dpatch, or to simply merge upstream into all out feature branches. In our case, the first is the easiest solution and since importing dpatch files is a one-time thing (thank $DEITY), I'll leave it at that. Almost. I have spent two days thinking about this more than I should have. And it was this point Linus made which made me appreciate Git even more:
Conflicts aren't bad - they're good. Trying to aggressively resolve them automatically when two branches have done slightly different things in the same area is stupid and just results in more problems. Instead, git tries to do what I don't think anybody else has done: make the conflicts easy to resolve, by allowing you to work with them in your normal working tree, and still giving you a lot of tools to help you see what's going on.
The end This concludes today's report. Importing the changes from the old Git repo, tagging and merging the branches is all covered in my previous post, or at least you'll find enough information there to complete the exercise. I would like to specifically thank Sam Vilain and Linus Torvalds for their help in preparing this post, as well as the #git/freenode inhabitants, as always. If you are interested in the topic of using version control for distro packaging, I invite you to join the vcs-pkg mailing list and/or the #vcs-pkg/irc.oftc.net IRC channel. Also, if you are interested in Git in general, you can find a list of blog posts on the Git wiki. NP: The Police: Zenyatta Mondatta

MJ Ray: Paris-Tours

Today sees the 101st Paris-Tours race, the last-but-one ProTour race. It’s showing on Eurosport (free-to-air at 19 east), France 3 (FTA at 5 west) 15:15-17:00 CET, Rai Tre (FTA 13e) 15:30-18:10 CET. If you know of other broadcasters showing the race, please leave me a comment. RAI Sport Sat (FTA 13e) repeat Paris-Tours tomorrow at 16:00 CET and show highlghts of the Giro dell’Emilia today at 13:40-14:20, and Gran Premio Beghelli 19:30-20:00.

6 October 2007

MJ Ray: Memorial Cimurri

RAI Sport Sat (free-to-air to Europe at 13 east) have highlights of the third Memorial Cimurri today (Saturday) at 21:30 CET.

29 September 2007

MJ Ray: World Masters Coverage 2

In addition to the BBC and Eurosport coverage posted before, I’ve spotted the World Championships free-to-air on ZDF (some point between 12:47 and 18:00 CET tomorrow) and SWR (highlights today, but they seem to be the host broadcaster…) and SLO2 too. RAI3 also shows it in the programme guide, but didn’t seem to cover all of the time trial…

24 September 2007

MJ Ray: World Masters

The UCI Road World Masters are showing on Eurosport and BBCi.
BBC have posted the BBCi schedule in a handy form. (Thanks BBC!) Most BBCi video channels are visible to most of Western Europe at 28 east (instead of the UK-centric beam that is used for BBC Two and the other national channels). Eurosport’s site still won’t give simple listings, so here’s their schedule for the free-to-air channel at 19 east as far as I can make out: Wed 26.09.2007 - ITT Women 16:00-17:30 CET Thu 27.09.2007 - ITT Men Under 23 11:30-12:30 CET, highlights? 12:30-14:00 CET, ITT Men 16:00-17:00 CET Fri 28.09.2007 - ITT Men 13:15-14:00 CET Sat 29.09.2007 - highlights? 09:00-12:45 CET, Men U23 16:15-18:00 CET Sun 30.09.2007 - Women 09:00-0930 CET, Men 10:30-14:00 CET, Men (highlights?) 16:00-17:30 CET Mon 01.10.2007 - highlights? 15:15-16:15 CET I think it will also be on RAI Tre at 13 east, but I don’t know if that will be free-to-air. Show times should appear here the day before broadcast. Which other free-to-air satellite broadcasters are showing this?

19 September 2007

MJ Ray: Media-sponsored Forums - How to Kill a Community

I was asked for a story on good or bad media sponsored online conversations. I'd not really had much to do with them until this summer. itv is the UK's biggest commercial broadcaster and it had rights to show the Tour de France here this year. Its coverage was pretty good, with daily highlights and live coverage at weekends, mostly on the itv4 satellite/DTT channel. The end of every show plugged their web homepage, which had a prominent link to their forums. I've been on a couple of cycling forums for a while, so I signed up and tried to help explain things that I knew. After a while, I noticed that when I answered a question properly, with links to other authoritative sites like the race teams' own sites, my message was silently removed. This happened a few times. Then I found out that the forum terms of use prohibit linking to any other web sites! This is a big problem, because itv's cycling pages are pretty limited. As a result, the forum was full of hearsay and it's hard to verify anything anyone posts. To cap it all, itv closed the forums for a weekend for an upgrade. Then a weekend became a week, which became a month, which became six weeks. When they finally reopened it, at least they sent me an email, so I tried to login. My login doesn't work and I can't view the forum as a guest any more. I've emailed their support address and had no reply. I don't know if this is a general problem - I can't contact other forum members because I don't have their details. I only saw them on the web forum and members couldn't link their homepages. So, it'll be a long time before I spend much time participating on any media-sponsored sites again, except in a casual throw-away way. Now most of my sports messages will be posted to Cycling Fans and BuzzinFootball like my local news posts go to the community-run WSM Forum. The trouble with media-sponsored forums is that they just don't have the interest in any particular community to want to sustain it. Somewhere, there's a bean-counter saying "so what if we kill this community? We started it from scratch and we'll just do it again." Any messages you post to those forums are usually gone, out of your control, lost to you. Is it worth posting to them? I think Andrew Savory is also spot-on about the problems with forums for technical communities in Bagel Belly Blog: How Open is your Open Source project? He certainly seems in fine form so far this week. I know not all forums are that bad. I'm on a couple of phpbb-powered ones which work well, with added XML feeds and so on. Are any "old media" companies brave enough to run a liberal phpbb? Are there other examples of particularly good or bad forums that you'd like to tell me about?

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